BRC S2 E8 - Discovering the True Essence of Barley at Waterford Distillery

Transcription

00:00:01
            

Hey, Neil, thanks for coming and chatting with us in this little beautiful barrel room you have going on here. No problem. You're more than welcome. More than welcome. We just finished taking the tour.        

00:00:10
            

It's fantastic. We'll go over all of that later in the show, but for right now, I would love to hear about your whiskey journey. My whiskey journey? Okay. So I won't say I'm a novice in the whiskey journey, but I'm definitely not a novice in the brewing industry.        

00:00:23
            

So I've nearly had 25 years brewing experience. My journey started Wadford in late 2016, so I suppose I missed the first year of production here, but I'm here ever since, so it's been a very, very good move for me. Exciting project. Every day is different and more than Happy made a move. So when did you get into brewing?        

00:00:48
            

Did you go to school for brewing? Yeah. So I started my apprenticeship as a brewer here at Waterford Brewery, this old diageo plant. So I spent nearly ten years as a brewer at Waterford and then I changed to Guinness in Dublin, so as a brewer there for three years. And then I just spent a little bit of time with Bailey's Mangrove bottling plant.         

00:01:15
            

Then I went out of the business altogether because at that time in Ireland, I suppose the beer industry was on a downward spiral. Sales weren't going too great. So got an opportunity to move to the dairy industry, was there for three years. And I got a call from the guys here late 2016, see what I'd be interested in. Coming.        

00:01:37
            

Head Brewer here. Met. Mark Ranier. Had a very brief discussion with Mark about his plan and his journey and his ideas. And to be honest, after that discussion, I just jumped at the opportunity.        

00:01:53
            

It just sounded completely different to what was going on in the industry, his ideas and I suppose his appetite for it. And he's drive for this project. I would be mad not to jump on it. So when you talked with Mark.        

00:02:14
            

How. Long did it take for you to. Say, yes, I'm on board straight away? To be honest, I came out of I called it an interview, but basically was Mark telling me what his plan was, and I came out of the interview not knowing whether I had a job or not. So, no, I got a phone call pretty soon after.        

00:02:31
            

Luckily interested? No water jump on board. So straight end, deep end. About two weeks later, looking at brewing, distilling the whole water for concept. At that time, we were just laying down stock of whiskey, so it was a good time to join, very good time to giant beth used after the water for journey.        

00:02:52
            

So when you started in the beer industry, did you ever think that you would, A, go to the dairy side or B, end up making whiskey? No. Once I moved over to the dairy industry, it was a brand new facility, 250,000,000 investment, job for life, good job close to home. Didn't have to commute up and down to Dublin. From where I live, I suppose I had a young family.        

00:03:16
            

So to make the move from a safe job over to the distilling, back to the brewing and distilling, it wasn't really a big decision. I was a decision. That's where I belonged. Put like that, once the opportunity came, that's what I really wanted to do. If I wanted a safe bed and have a job for life and was I really happy there?        

00:03:38
            

Probably not. And to come back into the brewing industry and distilling industry was just a no brainer for me. And I really only made that choice down to the conversation I had with Mark and his vision for his project. It was just exciting. I knew it was something different and I knew if I didn't take that journey, I'd regret it.        

00:03:59
            

Yeah, we had Mark on Spirits of Whiskey, which was the original podcast that we were doing, and he told us all about his terroir plan and all about the different barleys that we discussed on the tour. And I thought, wow, that's going to be an expensive undertaking to come out with the flavors that you deserve to come out with. Yeah. I resolved to actually do a definitive distillery, one that's a project, it's probably unlike one that will ever come after it. I had the opportunity, we had the resources and we had the knowledge of what to do and the ability to set up a distillery from scratch to distill a million liters of whiskey so he wouldn't run out from day one.         

00:04:55
            

Divided into 35 farm, single farm units from day one, to have the traceability, to be able to demonstrate that they are kept apart from the field right through to the barrel, the physical logistics to be able to do that and the software, you know, to to monitor it and of course, the finance to support it. So so that that was what the Waterford project was about. Tell me what it's been like to try to follow this path, because now you have to clean everything every time you do a batch and all of that. I suppose, as a brewer and my role here as head brewer or production manager, it's a bit of both, as looking after the production of single malt whiskey as a brewer previously, for Guinness, it was basically you take in raw material and you produce a beer from it. The add on to the role I have is actually working directly with the farmers, working directly with the merchant who mines the grain, working directly with the monster, and then we take in the batch of barley from the single farm batch.        

00:06:04
            

The whole tower concept was I suppose it wasn't new to me. It's just something different in my role, I suppose. When you look at the Mark's Terror idea or concept, we suppose we all lived and breathed it in another way. We just didn't really understand it what terror was about. If you look at green gross or grows potatoes or carrots, we all have our favorite potatoes, we all have our favorite place where we get our fruit and veg.        

00:06:34
            

That is terror. Yeah, you know what I mean? You prefer his produce over that produce because it grows in that side. That's terror. For me.        

00:06:43
            

In a simplified version, the terror idea really generated in France and in vineyards and grape growing and how they regard soil and microclimate, how that impacts flavors of grape. So bring that into whiskey. Nobody else has done it. So bringing these single farms into the distillery was, I suppose, a challenge for me, because you really had to have get those nuances, those differences in flavors coming true from the barley, really focusing in on the process and understanding fermentation, how that all impacts the tower, how we can best get the flavors from the farm. So that's what excited me about to role is to really sciency side to it, to really understanding of haven't understand the process, understanding the complications the farmer goes through in regards to how he grows.        

00:07:31
            

He's barely true to harvest season, the complications the monster may have by doing these single farm batches. And then when we bring it through fermentation at long and slow fermentation and malalactic fermentation, how that enhances the flavor or liberates the flavors from each single farm. And then our slow distillation, how that brings flavor from each single farm to it. So it's just been a different journey, but a really rewarding journey. So, when I had Mark on the show, he had three expressions from three different farms available in the US.        

00:08:05
            

And when I came in today, I saw an entire wall of different blue bottles. How many different expressions do you have now that are available in the market here, and how many do you have that are available overseas? So, good question. So I go back to the single farm. So we've to date, over six years of production, we've used over 107 single farms.        

00:08:26
            

So every year, we will take in the best 40 single farm growers based on quality of barley after harvest. Within that far, do we have organic growers, biodynamic growers, who grow barley using biodynamic techniques. We have heritage variety, all varieties that we grow that's included in that 40 single farms. So today it has said we've used 107 as released single farm additions. So what we did, we laid down stock for the first four years when it came to bottling, which unfortunately for us, was during the middle of a pandemic, we released a few single farm additions.        

00:09:04
            

So to allow the consumer compare and contrast what a single mall twiskey taste from certain farms with different towers, different microclimates. So over the last few years, we've leased up to 30 single farm additions. Now, not to confuse things here. So certain markets or jurisdictions will request a single farm lease just for that market. So that's kind of increased the numbers that we've released in the early days.        

00:09:30
            

So United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium, Canada, USA have got their own specific single farm additions in Ireland. We've accessed to majority of them, few that we can't get. Like we've released some to Taiwan and to the United States that we can't buy in Ireland. Well, a lot of people who are interested in our journey have gone to the ends of the earth to find these in the market and gotten back to Ireland or wherever they reside. So there's probably a little bit of a hurdle that they need to get through to get certain whiskey.        

00:10:05
            

Single malls, but we've also released organic single farm additions sorry, organic single malls, biodynamic single malls. And it's part of our Arcadian series. And our latest bottlings, which we released only last week, was our two peded whiskeys from Single Farms and our Heritage Hunter variety, which is an old variety of barley. So we have up to 35, 36 single farm expressions of our and then we have our CuveT Arcouve's, which I forgot, our cuves are an amalgamation of all the single farms put together. So we have a grand coupe released.        

00:10:41
            

And we also have microcouvets, seasonal microcouvets, which are six or seven single farms put together, but using four to four different casks that we put into our spirit into in different ways. So if it was a winter CuveT, there might be more us casks used to give a more spicy flavored whiskey for more mouthwarming whiskey at winter, whereas in summer, the summer release microcouvet, it might be more French cask because we want more of a rose color or a more fruity flower flavored whiskey at that time. So we can do a lot of things. And that's why we have so many different expressions released out there. That's amazing.        

00:11:23
            

So what is your favorite that you've tasted out of what? You guys have a lot of favorites for different reasons. Look, the single, I'll take them differently. So from the single farm releases, I suppose my palate, I prefer that more flower fruity flavored whiskeys. Little bit of spice in there.        

00:11:41
            

So barley grown on the Elton and Seafield series, I prefer sort of hook head. I like Bali Kilcavin. So they're one of the early releases. What's close to my heart is because of the projects that we've gone through are the both the Heritage all variety single model, the latest release, and Peted whiskeys, just because my involvement in the project and we're completely different what's out there in the industry. So personally, I prefer those because my input into the projects.        

00:12:11
            

So let me ask you about the Peted. So when I talked to Mark, you guys hadn't started that yet. So when you say completely organic and everything like that, where do you get your peat is that also locally grown? Yes. So what we do is everything is all our barley is Irish.        

00:12:24
            

Our source barely from all these single farms throughout Ireland, from the north, south, east and west of Ireland, from all different locations, different terroirs. So we weren't going to do a Peted range. But in our journey to find different flavors from all these different terrors, we said, Actually, let's look at Pete and let's see if we source the turf in Ireland or the peat in Ireland. And obviously the Irish sourced barley. And let's see how they come together as a pair using Irish peat, irish grown barley.        

00:12:54
            

Now we have to send Irish barley and the Irish sourced peat over to Scotland for the peeding process and then we bring it back for the bottling. Wow. Okay. Sorry, not for the bottling, but for the production process. And then maturation, then bottling.         

00:13:09
            

Wow. Okay. Well, I think it's time we go taste some of these barrels. So we have actually peeded right behind us. So we'll give you the nearest one too, so we can taste a peeded biscuit, this majority.        

00:13:22
             

So this is actually we released our first peded range only last week. Fennis Court and Valley bandits of two single farms. So these two here are actually the Fennis Court barley came from Jerryborn's Farm. The turf was sourced in Bally Teague in the central of our midlands of Ireland. Okay.        

00:13:39
            

Single farm. So Jerse apparently went to Scotland, as well as the 50 ton of turf over to Scotland for the peeding process. Came back, we brewed fermented distilled and then we put this bird in cask here. Okay. So it sits here for since September 2018.        

00:13:57
            

So just over five years. Okay. Let's take a look. Four years. Four years.        

00:14:03
            

Sorry. Four years. Five years.        

00:14:09
            

It's a great sound. Do you want to do this? Sure. Move the honors.        

00:14:18
            

Lovely cobwebs and all that. Good flavor.        

00:14:28
            

Brilliant.        

00:14:31
            

All right, this is at went in at 71%. It's probably down around 69 now. Okay. All right. It's not too heavy on the peat?        

00:14:41
            

No on the nose. So this is 37 ppm. Okay. So lightly Peted, purposely. So see what reaction we still want those flavors from the Bardi coming true.        

00:14:52
            

We don't want to over smoke it, so it takes over. So we want the two to work together. So see what flavors come from both the peat and the moss. See what reaction comes through. So on the nose, not a whole lot of piece.        

00:15:06
            

When you taste it, it's hot on. The front and not so much on the back. That's interesting. Then things opens up then. Yeah.        

00:15:16
            

You get the pizza at the back of your backyard. Yeah. That doesn't hit you in the face. That's very nice.        

00:15:28
            

Yeah. I might actually drink this. Yeah. So what we'll do after this? I would taste the bottle at 50% ABP.        

00:15:33
            

Finished article. Great. All right, well, let's go on. We're very happy with it. Yeah, it's got some good legs, too.        

00:15:39
            

All right, we give some back into that. All right, I'm going to pass mine to the boys. Yeah, that's all right. Hey, cheers. Be rude not to, wouldn't it?        

00:15:50
            

Yeah, very good. So the other latest barley we did was the Peters, and we also taste that cast down below. So now this is the finished article. We tasted in, again, an expert and blood tub. Again.        

00:16:01
            

We Irish. Source barley. Irish source. Tar. Sent us cotton for the heating process, brought back the distillery, went through all the process here, through the mountings and process here.        

00:16:11
            

And again, four different types of cask put together, leased as a single body fence cord. All right. All right. Go cask.        

00:16:25
            

That smells much different than it did in the cask. It's a fruitier, smoky smell. Yes. Very light under nose. Pete advice, he doesn't come through much, but it opens up them up like that.        

00:16:41
            

And you weren't fan Kevin? No, but it does taste much pedier in this version than it did in the cask. Wow, that's delicious. Good job, you. Very good.        

00:16:52
            

So what one is this? And tell me about this Heritage program you guys are doing. Okay, so this is heritage Hunter. So this is one of the very first old hairlong varieties we resurrected from the Department of Agriculture. So, again, in our journey for find different flavors, we said, let's go back in time and let's see what old varieties we grew them, see what flavors will come true.        

00:17:14
            

We feel that the more modern variety varieties have been bred over the last 40, 40 years, have been bred for yield purposes for both the grower and for breweries and stellaries. So we wanted to go back in time. Let's see, can we find all varieties, grow them, bring them through the process, mature, see what flavors you get? Might be great, but you might be fantastic. Let's see what tricep.        

00:17:34
             

So this is Contour Variety, and I can tell you a little bit of history about the Contour variety. It's predominantly grown in Ireland. Over in the in Ireland, right between fifty S and sixty s. It's more the most modern of the heritage varieties. Okay, so this, again, is just over four years old.        

00:18:05
            

Put some of that with a wave last time. Okay, I have a taste of this one quite a while. So we released the heritage single motor whiskey last week. It was just over three and a half years old. That's got a nice earthy nose.        

00:18:24
            

Smell the barley on that.        

00:18:31
            

That's nice. Got a nice bite at the end. Malty fruity as well. Yes, very malty.        

00:18:39
            

It's like oatmeal with a kick at the end, love. It completely different than what we're what we're normally. So it's a single farm. Just have to bring it a different spin to it. I talked to you a little bit about the project.        

00:18:52
            

So it started back in 2016 where we went to the Department of Agriculture in Ireland. So these guys have a seed bank in departments where they hold old varieties of cereals. So we asked them could they find us the oldest varieties they could get their hands on? So they came back to us and said, look, we have Hunter variety from the in Ireland and we have it a Gold Tart variety which hasn't been grown in Ireland since the start of the early 19 hundreds. 19 or 519?        

00:19:24
            

Six. So we took 50 grams of each of those varieties and over two years we propagated these varieties off to give enough seed, one ton of seed to a grower to grow on his farm. Wow. So it took a lot of people. So the people in Department of Agriculture.        

00:19:43
            

Are partner at Minch Mall. Steve sky had the land for us to grow at Barley in. And then we successfully took it as a distillery here over three years ago. Brought it through the process with difficulty because it's a rare heritage variety that doesn't go well through the process. But we got it through it, we got it mature and into four different types of cask.        

00:20:03
            

And we released a single mold that's a beautiful color last week. So behind the Hunter variety, then there is Old Irish, which found hasn't grown in Ireland since in the late 18 hundreds. That's the oldest variety we could find. So that would come in two years time. We've spat Archer, which is 1920s, and Hunter here.        

00:20:23
            

The Hunter variety is actually special. The way it worked out, the Hunter variety was named after a guy called Herbert Hunter. He came to Ireland in the early 19 hundreds. This guy was employed by Guinness in the early 19 hundreds to come to Ireland from the UK to start a barley breeding program. So his job was to cross breed varieties that were available in Ireland at Gold, Harp, Gold Irish, these non race varieties, start breeding them together so that they would yield better for both the brewery and distilleries, more consistency for the breweries and distilleries.        

00:20:58
            

So he worked in Ireland for 2030 years when he retired and he bred a variety called Spratt and Archer and Daniel Hunter after him. That's great. So that variety is down to his work and breeding program in Ireland. That's the distillery ghost. Kerry.        

00:21:18
            

So what we have here is our Heritage Hunter. We tasted the taste. It spirited cask, but this is it in the final bottle. So it was released last week, 50% ABV. So Neil, our head 50.        

00:21:32
            

Even all our sink, all our releases. Are sink are 15. So when Neil put Neil Ganner, head of Cylinder, when he puts these whiskeys together, we used to four different types of Cascade ex Bourbon, Cascade Virgin, US oak, your French Oak and your VDN Sweet Wine shares. He puts the four casks together in. Different percentages and releases sink.        

00:21:49
            

And which cask was the one we. Were tasting, we tasted a small ex bourbon. Yeah. Blood top. So I'm sure yeah, this one's got it smells the same, but yet it's got a more pungent, more pop to.        

00:22:06
            

The dense, more color from the virgin oak that was used as well from the US. Virgin. Oh, that's way smoother than what we just had. Oh, it's delicious. The other one good.        

00:22:18
            

This one has a nice soft finish.        

00:22:26
            

For a young spirit. It's still only three and a half years old. It's delicious. So that's got a great blend for those those casks. That's for sure.        

00:22:33
            

Very good. So that yeah, that's the Hunter variety circuit, 1950s to 1970s. We resurrected that one. So as I said, all the varieties. Were coming behind that.         

00:22:42
            

That's great. Yeah.        

00:22:45
            

Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a great education. I love the tour. And we'll keep checking back with you guys for new updates and new varieties and see where you're going from here. Excellent.        

00:22:57
            

Thank you. Gary Louise, it is lovely to have. You in studio again today. It's been a while. Haven't been anything on season two yet because I was in Ireland and you couldn't come because you were often paris and London and other places we we mademoiselle.         

00:23:14
            

Yes, I was. Today I'm going to have you try the micro CuveT from Waterford Distillery that I got there when I was there. So we'll put that over here, and then we had Mark Renee on Spirits of Whiskey back in the day. And you got to taste the three that he sent before. I don't remember what we did with that one, though.        

00:23:34
            

I'll have to look it up. But this one is quite different, this micro coupe. So let me think. Tell me what you think about it. Well, okay.        

00:23:41
            

First of all, I'm not sure if you know this, but I am from a town in Wisconsin called Waterford. Now, we are not known for our crystal there. Okay. Ireland. Yes.        

00:23:56
            

Thus the crystal top on the bottle. However, what we are known for is the Waterford Bowl. May it rest in peace. I think it burNeil down a while ago. I'm not exactly sure what happeNeil to it.        

00:24:07
            

And they rebuilt it. I know it's not the same, but at the Waterford Bowl, there was this delicious sandwich called the Torpedo. What? It was the same sub. It must have been a sub.         

00:24:17
            

Yeah. And it had, like I think it went into a toaster oven and it had some sort of beef and cheese and red sauce and whatever. I can't tell you all about the Torpedo because that's a long time ago. However, that is the thing I think of when I think of Waterford, Wisconsin, at this point in my life, is the Torpedo sandwich at the bowling alley. How pathetic is that?        

00:24:37
            

No, that's fine. That gets a childhood memory and it gets the senses. It is one of my childhood memories. But that being said, this whiskey, okay? This whiskey, I'm sorry, Waterford, Wisconsin, but is too eloquent for the torpedo sandwich.        

00:24:58
            

Torpedo sandwich. And that ain't happening. But what it's perfect for, though, is Korean barbecue. Hear me out. No, I can taste.        

00:25:09
            

Okay. So hear me out. This is very barley forward. Anyway, when you go to Korean barbecue or to Korean restaurants in Los Angeles, oftentimes they will bring you a little glass of barley tea. Like cold barley tea.        

00:25:27
            

UnsweeteNeil interesting. Yeah, it's just basically the barley groats that are soaked in water, and they make a tea. I had no idea that was a thing. It's a thing. It's very healthy and it's very refreshing.        

00:25:37
            

And I don't know, for some reason, when I taste this and I taste the barley, it takes me to that place. I mean, Korean barbecue is, like, part of the fabric of Los Angeles. Show me an angelino that's never had Korean barbecue. You know what? I haven't had it until recently.        

00:25:55
            

Okay, keep that to yourself. Don't admit that. Well, okay, I'm not big on Asian foods because well, depends. I don't like sweet and sour soy or teriyaki, so that cuts out, like, half of everything. Okay.        

00:26:07
            

But that's also very specific. And there's many foods Asia, that don't even have. Right. So with that being said, and I'm always telling my nieces and my my friend's kids, my friend's kids said, I don't like burritos. I was like, well, this is a breakfast burrito, but I don't like burritos.        

00:26:24
            

I said, well, how do you know that? Because I tried a burrito. I said, you tried one burrito? Yeah, and I said, okay, what was in it? She's like, I don't know.        

00:26:30
            

And I was like, okay, well, I'm sure it wasn't a breakfast burrito, because you like eggs, you like potatoes, and you like bacon, and that's what's in this. And she goes, oh. So I decided I can't be, like, forcing the kids to open up their mind about food if I don't open up my mind about food. So I'm like, all right, well, Korean I don't know that I've had Korean, and I don't know that there's that much sweet and sour soy in those. No, those are not flavors.        

00:26:55
            

Those are not right? So my oldest niece soy, yes, but not I can do soy if it's, like, light, if it's, like, drenched in it. You're very white, by the way. Yes, I am. I mean, I know I'm very white, but I try to eat non white.        

00:27:08
            

So for my niece's college graduation, she took us to a Korean barbecue place, and they brought the food, and we could got to cook it, and I. Was like, what is this? And she's like, how have you never had this? And I'm like, I don't know, but it was delicious, and we got to. Cook it ourselves, being that Korean barbecue is such a huge part of Los Angeles and a huge part of how people go out this whiskey, being that it's got that barley forward taste, slight smokiness.        

00:27:38
            

You imagine putting some kelby on the barbecue. You imagine putting all the various meats, the pork. Oh, my gosh. The pork, to me, is one of my favorites. I like to go to a place called Sip Bull Jeep because they actually use real coal.        

00:27:51
            

Oh, wow. And you will leave there smelling like a full blown grill. For sure. Worth it, worth it, worth it. Go home and shower.        

00:28:00
            

Wash your clothes. It doesn't matter, because the food is so delicious, and the meat that comes off of that grill, honestly, I might actually want to just bring a flask of this in the next time I go. Seriously. Because this is a perfect pairing. A perfect pairing.        

00:28:14
            

It's really delicious. So I think we'll have to do that next time. And also, too, especially some of the kimchis that use the Korean chili paste. It's called guccijang. I know I'm probably not saying that correctly.        

00:28:27
            

I'm sorry. Everyone knows I don't speak Korean, throwing that out there. But that also has sugar in it, so it has a little bit of sweetness as well. So all of those flavors with this whiskey would be on point, like a plus pairing. Oh, I think we should go to that place right now and have food, and I'll pack us some flasks, and we'll go.        

00:28:46
            

Yeah, many flasks. Louise, as always, thank you so much. Pleasure. We'll see you next time