Distilled in Washington with Becky Garrison (BRC S3 E3)

AI Transcript: BRC S3 E3 - Distilled in Washington

Kerry Moynahan:
It is 5 o'clock somewhere and you've tuned in to Season 3, Episode 3 of BRC. For those of you who'd like to watch this episode, I highly recommend it. You can view Season 3 on our website, YouTube, Spotify, WhiskeyNetwork.net, and Zencastr. I'm Kerry Moynahan, and in today's Reading on the Rocks, I speak with author Becky Garrison about her new book, Distilled in Washington. Kick off your shoes, pour yourself a dram, and join me for this episode of Barrel Room Chronicles. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time it is that you are catching the show today. Today on the show, we have author Becky Garrison, author of Distilled in Washington, a fascinating historical book about how distilling became to be in Washington state. Becky, with no further ado, I'd love to talk to you about your book. Welcome.

Becky Garrison:
Well, thank you for having me. Much appreciated.

Kerry Moynahan:
Oh, it's great to have you. I've been reading your book for the last week or so, and I'm finding it very interesting. There's a lot of great information in here. And I can't wait to get into the nitty gritty with you on this book. First of all, what I always talk to people about when we get on the show is your whiskey journey. So give me a little background about when you were a wee little lass, did you ever think that you would be interested in whiskey or writing books about whiskey?

Becky Garrison:
No, given my family's history of alcoholism and the fact they would consume southern comfort and not the good stuff, I never ever thought I would be writing on this subject. But then I moved to the Pacific Northwest where I began to learn about terms like regenerative agriculture, began to hear conversations about terroir around whiskey, similar that you keep hearing about wine. And this rekindled a love that I had begun in the 1990s when I discovered cigars, fly fishing, and Lagavulin to be precise. I got into that whole cigar and scotch movement in the 1990s. I kind of abandoned it for a while. I just figured this is just a little bit of a hipster movement that I shouldn't, you know, kind of like, this is a little bit too trendy. I just don't feel quite right. And then when I moved back to the Pacific Northwest, I picked up the whiskey again with a definite Pacific Northwest twist to it.

Kerry Moynahan:
That's fantastic. So how long have you been back up in that area?

Becky Garrison:
I moved here in 2014.

Kerry Moynahan:
Okay, so a good 10 years. Yeah. All right. So tell me, when you got back into it in 2014, how did you, how did that interest getting back into the spirit, fire your interest in writing this novel, not novel, this book?

Becky Garrison:
Well, I was actually I was in Seattle interviewing One of my beats was religious. I was covering this nefarious preacher who was kind of notorious in Seattle, and I connected with Charles Finkel, who is this legendary beer and wine pioneer in Seattle with Pike's Pub. He introduced me to Jason Parker, who was his first head brewer over at Copperworks. And from there, he said, you got to try Jason's stuff. So I began to discover that with Jason, I was getting a beer informed whiskey, where they are brewing their wort, not distilling it, and adds a very strong flavor. I'm like, wow, this is incredible whiskey. Then you try Westward, which had the similar sensibility in Oregon. People don't realize Westward is the largest brewery, or one of the largest breweries in Portland, because they too also brew their wort. And from there I met Westland, who they don't brew their wort, but their approach is so unique to the way they take their barley program, their oat program. And every whiskey distillery I walked into had a very unique and distinctive story. And that just became, these stories are just so fascinating. And then it hit me as I started learning what I read about these stories where they don't exist. No one has written a book. They've written books about the history of drinking in America where you discover how drunk we were at the turn of the century. Holy God. I mean, you know, there's been, you know, Mark Forsythe did the whole global history of drunkenness, but no one has ever really sat down and said, well, how did this glass of whiskey What started the whiskey journey to the West and where did it end up going from being this absolutely god-awful, horrible product that you only drank because you had no other options to a award-winning craft where Westland just got nominated the best whiskey in the world? So how did that journey happen? And the reason I'm emphasizing whiskey is whiskey really became the dominant spirit that won the West. I mean,

Kerry Moynahan:
No question about it. I love it. So when did you start? Okay, so you moved back in 2014. When did you start working on this on this book?

Becky Garrison:
I sold the book, believe in November of 2022. And it was turned in December 2023. Oh, final proofing. So basically, the book was written in about eight months. And then then it's the copy editing the proofing and making sure you got all the dice, all the dots are done and everything's to go.

Kerry Moynahan:
Yeah. So tell me, what was the most interesting thing that you learned while researching for this book?

Becky Garrison:
How few distilleries there were. I mean, the fact that until Dry Fly came along, I could count on one hand, the number of distilleries that actually lasted more than a year or two. It was just, it was just phenomenal, fascinating to me that I mean, I guess when you start looking at the dates, you know, Washington became a state until 1889 and Prohibition was 1920. You can see there's still a lot of that rebel culture there. And just the extent to which also that whiskey played from the very beginning, from the fur traders using it to trade to the law... Fur traders. I wore this in honor of the fur traders today. You know, and you realize from the very beginning, this was a form of commerce. This was how they traded. You don't realize that until something becomes a state, how little is out there. And just looking at also just how rough and tumble this was. I mean, you go to Seattle and you think it's so sophisticated and you don't realize that, you know. how the term Skid Row came about is because they were skidding loads down Yesler Avenue, the loggers were, and the people that were going to this bar right where they were when they weren't skidding the logs were not exactly the kind of people you really wanted to associate with. So you begin to realize all these terms that we use like Skid Row and how much originated from this particular culture.

Kerry Moynahan:
That's crazy. So I was reading the beginning here, and you have a lot of really interesting facts. And we start off, in the introduction, we start off, we talk about the pilgrims. And I love the picture here in the beginning where the father is, you know, shoveling beer down his daughter's throat. That's fantastic. And then you've got a bunch of some really good drawings that I love in here, too, for those watching at home. There's so many things I want to ask you. So let's talk about the origins of distilling on the Oregon Trail. How did you find out about that? And I know that one of the things that I recognized in the book here was that a lot of the saloons back in the early days were tents. So why don't you talk to us a little bit about that and how they weren't really big structures, et cetera.

Becky Garrison:
Well, a lot of these were kind of compiling a bunch of different books. Mark Forsythe's book, The History of Drunkenness. Susan Cheever's Drinking in America. A.R. Rohrbart did a book called The Alcoholic Republic. There's another book called Salutes and Scoundrels. And from all these books, you kind of get little bits and pieces. And from there, I learned that when Lewis and Clark went out, they never list whiskey in a list of the, like the settler's guide, you kind of read this up, okay, what do you need to have? They didn't include whiskey. I mean, the only drink they included was coffee. So you begin to, you start to kind of get, okay, why didn't they include whiskey? Why did they not want to mention that? Because then, one author mentioned that Lewis and Clark, that they ran out of booze. And it just wasn't talked about that much for some reason. It's like, nobody wants to discuss whiskey. You know, they just, it was like this four letter word. And then you'd be able to realize that the first thing, and everyone would say, when they were discussing the history of Pacific Northwest, they would say, the first thing built was the saloon, the school, the church. I mean, those were the three things that were built and the tent saloon, the picture of that, that got that from, the Yukon Territory, because I couldn't find one in Washington State, but that's what they looked like. This was not a nice little, this wasn't even a dive bar. The saloons, the way Hollywood is depicted a saloon is a walking joke. It was more R-rated, NC-17, possibly even X, depending on where you went.

Kerry Moynahan:
I love it. I love it. So let's talk about, hold on. Yes. I have a page marked here. Prohibition in the wet Washington state. Let's talk about how that whole situation was going down.

Becky Garrison:
Well, Washington and Oregon, being the kind of raucous states that they were, ended up having more laws and more regulations against them. They were really fighting against them. This is a good example of how you really should look at your local ordinances before you vote. A lot of people want to get rid of the saloon. The saloon was god-awful. I mean, to put it mildly, people get mad at Carrie Nation. They make fun of her. They don't realize she was getting drunks out of there at eight in the morning. People were drinking 24-7. They weren't going home to their wives. Their paycheck wasn't going home to the family. They would send their child over to the saloon to pick up a gallon of beer and the kids would end up seeing things that no child should ever see. This was a situation so raucous, I described how in a saloon in Spokane, a circus monkey got caught loose and they didn't discover the monkey was loose until a year later when they did renovations. Wow. Now, if you had money, if you were of means, they would have the private club set up just like they always did in the East Coast for those of the Ivy League sorts had their own private drinking. I'm talking about how the rest of us drank. If you had enough money, you were isolated, you had your imported brandies, liquor, wine, and spirits from San Francisco, then Portland, then Seattle. But that was for the 1% back then. Most people You kind of just did what you could do. And I think, and also here, the saloon operators in many ways were the early blenders, as were the first fur traders. Because think about it, you get this barrel out there, now what do you do? It's DIY. There is no other way to make it. So a lot of the initial distillers were bartenders picking up these guides of how do you fake this stuff? This is well before prohibition. You know, okay, I can put in some tobacco. I can put in some red sagebush. I can put in certain things to make this look like whiskey, because we're all forgetting that the Taft decision that, you know, basically said this is what whiskey is, didn't come about until the turn of the century. We didn't have barreled and bond until the turn of the century. And we didn't have the Food and Drug Act until 1906. So this was definitely, in terms of what went into the whiskey, depending on whoever your bartender was, you had to trust your bartender. And cuts were generally not that much of a deal. You didn't have much whiskey. So are you really going to cut that whiskey and get rid of it when you have no other whiskey that you're making at home? So cuts were kind of almost non-existent. And in the case of whiskey sold to the natives, that's what they would actually add, the poison and other elements that were just, I mean, that was one of the most devastating things in the book is just realizing the extent to which whiskey was used to totally decimate a population of people for no other reason than just abject cruelty and because they could.

Kerry Moynahan:
Let's talk about the legislation, the legislation of liquor and in the Washington Territory and how that all started to be.

Becky Garrison:
Well, the initially attempts to ban liquor were not successful. The only thing they were successful at doing initially was to have laws against allowing the natives. And sometimes, believe it or not, that was instituted by the local tribe. For example, the first distillery in Washington State was at Fort Vancouver. It lasted three years. The local tribe leaders came and said, please get rid of it. They didn't like the effect it was having on the local natives. And when people were discovering this dark, dirty secret, and this applies to distilling, is that they could, if you gave a native some whiskey, he could go off and capture the first for you. And you would then sell them. So people became, I don't want to say lazy, but this was a very dangerous job. They discovered that if I just gave this guy some whiskey and he will go and do this incredibly dangerous job for me and I won't get killed. Right. So that was, I think we have to realize this is kind of how the culture was going into, every time they would attempt to try to ban liquor, forget it, forget it, forget it. Finally, women in Washington got the right to vote in 1910. This was the year they decided to vote a local option in, where people could decide, do you want liquor, do you not want liquor? 42% of the state went dry. And then by 1916, the entire state went dry. This is four years before national prohibition. When we say it went dry, it went as dry as the local officials wanted it to be. The people in the rural areas were much more in favor of prohibition than the people in the big cities. Interesting. And some of that was just also practical because you didn't know if your farmer, your farmhand went to the city. You didn't know what kind of shape he was going to come back in if he was going to come back. So the railroad workers, there became a huge problem with intoxication on jobs where that required the use of machinery. You can't have a farmhand, someone working the railroad, working the sawmill. These people can't be working highly intoxicated. So that was some of the concern. You also had certain You know, immigrant population would come over. The Germans, the Italians, the Irish, they brought with them their traditions of beer or whiskey and wine. The other traditions brought with them their religious traditions. You'd have the Scandinavians. They might make the aqua beat for their parties, but they were generally teetotalers. So certain areas of the state were more enforcing it than others. The big cities by and large did not enforce it. It was about as wet as it could be. It didn't get the press that we want because we didn't have a John Dillinger. We didn't have an Al Capone out here. We didn't have, we had gentlemen bootleggers. It was very, we had a gentlemen bootleggers convention here. You know, we had Boeing, Boeing here, where they could access Al Hubbard, who was Roy Olmsted's engineer, they were selling, I don't know why they would do this, but they were selling World War II airplane parts. So Al Hubbard bought some of them, put them in his speedboats, and he could outspeed the Coast Guard. And that was one way that they got them through. We had, I discovered four instances of pilots, people that were using, this is a very newfangled technology. There were no formal FAA air strips. There was just, you know, we think about it, crop dusting didn't happen until 1927. Lindbergh's flight was, no sorry, crop dusting was 24, Lindbergh's flight was 27. So when you think of this, this is a whole new thing. So I found the first person I think that can cover this, four accounts of different pilots and operations. They were flying into Canada and flying back. You know, so there's like, you know, rum-rumming up and down Puget Sound, outweighing the Coast Guard, you know, a lot of help from Canada. I was, you know, Brad Holden has done a very good job of explaining a lot of this in his book, Seattle Prohibition, how, you know, the Canadian government was like, hey, this is great for us. I mean, look at how many Canadian brands. got started as a result of Prohibition. I mean, see Grimm's out in Chicago. They were furnishing all about the tone of that whole Midwestern area. So you look at who emerged as the major players and a lot of these big brands, that's where they got started was Prohibition.

Kerry Moynahan:
Don't touch that device. We'll be right back with more from Becky Garrison.

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Kerry Moynahan:
Let's talk about, um, since we're on kind of illegal stuff, home distilling, uh, remaining illegal and how, like, how did that, how did it become illegal? When did it become illegal?

Becky Garrison:
Home distilling has never been legal in the United States, technically. I mean, if you look at it from a perspective, the question was, was it deemed illegal and enforceable or they got wanted? But it's, you've always needed, supposedly, I mean, when you go back to colonial times, it can be different. Because in colonial times, you had the largely women were just, they were making the beer, distilling the cider, distilling the grains. You know, it's, we have no pasteurization. What'd you do with your excesses grains? It was much easier to, distill it. Then as we got into more of the commercial distilleries, That's when you began to find raids here and there. And I think a lot of those raids depend on what did local law enforcement care about? Who was going to get upset over this particular case? Because some law enforcement, they didn't care. They might have been making it themselves. You look at how raids happen. In fact, the first time we tried to tax whiskey, you saw how the whiskey rebellion went. Americans are not into having their spirits taxed. They are not. That's, I think, you know, one of the things we have to kind of think about is, is where, I mean, you have said to me, you know, how do you want to compare prohibition? Prohibition was another example where you had the officials were doing the exact same thing. They were, they were, you know, basically sending people to jail for doing the exact same thing they were doing.

Kerry Moynahan:
Right. Yeah. Okay, so then let's talk about now that, you know, once everything became legal again, like after Prohibition, let's talk about the craft movement and how things started back up in Washington and the rise of the single malt.

Becky Garrison:
Well, we ended, Washington state, as you know, every state after Prohibition kind of set up what they wanted to do as far as their own system. And Washington's state system ended up being among the highest taxed and most highly regulated of any state in the nation. It was absolutely you know, very restrictive what you could do. It's almost kind of like, you know, you almost felt like you're kind of doing something illegal. You know, you're good, you're going behind this bar and you're asking for this little purse, this little post office kind of thing. And you feel like, oh my God, this is kind of dirty to, you know, buy things. And in fact, the Washington state is, Washington even got into the booze business where they were actually bottling whiskey for a while. They imported, Washington and Oregon purchased a fair amount of whiskey from a distiller in Scotland. They were distributing this in bulk and that was their way to try to prevent illegal distilling, but the taxes were still so high. It wasn't always all bad things. I mean, you did have some really high quality farmers who were making a really high quality brandy. And one farmer was saying, I can make $5 back in 1933 for my brandy. Why should I get licensed and pay for all this. I'm doing a very good hand-to-mouth. You always had a few people like that that kind of hand-to-mouth, but there was a lot of illegal illicit distilling, a lot of work with the roadhouses, a lot of, there was just a lot of, liquor was kind of going around. No matter how much the Washington State Liquor Control Board tried to control the liquor, it just was not flowing. Finally, I think in 2007, Don and his friend Keith of Dry Fly, decided to work with the Washington state legislature to change it. So they opened up their own distilling. Then they changed the craft law. where instead of paying several thousand dollars, someone could pay in the hundreds of dollars. The products had to be made with 51% Washington State, you know, grown products. And that launched the beginning of a movement where from 2007, we had one distillery. By 2012, they had 20. We now have, we think about 75, there was 135 licenses on file, but a number of those We don't know quite the status because, you know, distilling license goes for 10 years. There's a lot of licenses out there for taking out in 2019 that have not been redeemed. And time will tell what people are going to do with these. But we're now, so Washington State is now grown to be number three or number four. Us or Texas for number of distilleries. I suspect that Texas probably has more because they're looking at the total number of distillery licenses, not number of active distilleries. And those numbers continue to get flexible. I just heard of another person telling me today, my distillery is closing. So people continue to move in and out of this industry very quickly. With this, I think comes to me the most exciting development here is the, because you've had Matt Hoffman on your show and talking about the rise of American single mall. This is going to be, in my view, the epicenter of where the really, no offense to anybody else, they make all great American single malls, but I just think we are in a position where we are going to be doing some incredibly off the wall stuff. and off the charts with American single malls. These guys are like the beer pioneers. They're coming from a beer background. They're doing really interesting stuff with the mall houses. They're starting to connect with farmers locally to buy directly from the farmer. A lot of interesting changing methods. Jason Parker is now starting to contract where I will pay you per acre to grow this certain kind of barley instead of growing per bushel. And that's going to produce much better graze because the farmer's like, if I'm going to get the same money, yeah, I'll plant your alba, even though it's a less higher yield than what this malt house said. I'll, you know, okay, I'll give it a shot. If you pay me.

Kerry Moynahan:
Yeah, exactly. It's kind of, you know, and it's good for the soil too, you know, regenerate with, you know, new stuff. So hopefully, you know, these things will continue. And it's also serendipitous that you guys contacted me because this season we started out in Washington and I visited Chambers Bay and Old Soldier and Doc Swinson's. So we've been doing a whole, I don't know, the universe just said, We got to get we got to get Becky on the show because it's it's a Washington kind of feel these days. So what else do you want the readers to know about the book before we before we let you go?

Becky Garrison:
Well, I think one thing to think about is this is the Washington Stillers Guild was took an unfortunate leave of absence during COVID. And this book, believe it or not, has the most comprehensive listing of distilleries in Washington state. Eventually, it will be updated for the website, but for right now, this is the most comprehensive distillery. And I also think it's important to look at the stories. When I first started this, I noticed how all these other distillery books were full of facts. And I said, well, facts are boring. I mean, I want to know the stories. And to me, that's the real truth. And I found that the best story, when I was interviewing distillers, some of them would just give me facts. Here's what I make, blah, blah, blah. Other people would give me this great story. When I was a kid, I had to, you know, get the kitchen down. Look at how many distillers came from Prohibition backgrounds. I had two distillers whose, one of them were doctors who made, his parents were doctors who made gin during Prohibition, and they sold it as medicinal spirits. And another one had his parents, his grandparents ran a bakery that was actually a distillery in their house. So you begin to discover all these.

Kerry Moynahan:
This is a very... A secret bakery distillery. That would be fantastic to go visit.

Becky Garrison:
Yeah, it was. Yeah. And until it blew up because they... That sounds likely. Yes, it was. So I think you start looking at the stories. It's very fascinating. And it's also where we have room for grow. Washington State is the first state that has the first distillery on tribal lands in the country.

Kerry Moynahan:
We talked to Justin and Jennifer, the guys behind getting that law turned over on the show too.

Becky Garrison:
But in spite of that, I still could not do a chapter on women in distilling and I could not do a chapter on people of color in distilling because I had one distillery, which I've already profiled, and there just weren't enough female distillers. less than, I can count them all in one hand. So I think there's, but it's also a very dynamic group. I think also with Washington distilling, what you notice is when somebody, if somebody tries to act uppity, they're kind of called out on the carpet here. I mean, we just don't, I mean, I love the fact that other people like, you know, we're, I'm going to go to Seattle Carnival of Cocktails tomorrow. They have a, Seattle Cocktail Week has this event, and you'll see everything from Jack Daniels to really high-end, delicious spirits. The way we push flavor over consistency and yield, it is such a huge, it's a natural progression. People here are accustomed to paying, if you come here, you can come to a distillery, every time you come for a tasting room, you're going to get a different flight. And you go to other places and sometimes you want that consistency. You want your Lagavulin to taste the same every way. If that's what you want, then there's plenty of places you can go for that. But if you want to just have your taste buds have like an absolute orgasm here, you know, it's, it's absolutely delicious. I mean, every time I come up here, it's like, I want to go to the same tasting room and people are like, why do you want to go to the same one? It's going to be different.

Kerry Moynahan:
It's going to be different every time. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. All right, Becky, why don't you tell our audience where they can find the book and what the, uh, what the, uh, suggested retail price is.

Becky Garrison:
The retail price is $24.99. I do not know if anyone will be discounting it. It's available at the publisher's website, Arcadia Publishing, Amazon, all online outlets, and a sizable number of books and our stores are carrying it along with bookshop, which that's what I, what I understand is how independent bookstores can order books.

Kerry Moynahan:
Fantastic. And then also, do you have it in a Kindle or Apple ebook version?

Becky Garrison:
The ebook version will be coming out. I understand that it comes out a little bit after the hardcover, but there will be an e-cover. Because of the nature of the photographs and whatnot, there's no point in doing an audio book because you really need to look at the photos.

Kerry Moynahan:
There are a lot of great photos in here. Like here's a couple of dudes.

Becky Garrison:
Yep. That's a good old bootlegger. Yeah, they look like bootleggers.

Kerry Moynahan:
I mean, and then there's, we've got some, some stuff here with this, just all these great images. You've captured so many wonderful things in here. You have labels, you have images of, you know, bootleggers, you have images of, um, old distilleries, new distilleries, uh, old bars, new bars, the dog in the warehouse.

Becky Garrison:
Yeah. You had to do a distillery dog.

Kerry Moynahan:
Oh, and before we go, can you tell us a little bit about the bottle on the cover?

Becky Garrison:
That photo was taken by Keith Barnes of Bainbridge Organic Distillers, who's an absolutely delightful person that is from a liquor bottle from 1910 of the Bohemian Liquor House in Seattle. It was one of those bars. As I said, it was very common for a bar to also be a bartender. This place went the extra mile of getting a license where they could actually do this. The place is still in existence as a nightclub. It's somewhere in Seattle, in downtown Seattle, but obviously the place had to close during prohibition.

Kerry Moynahan:
Okay, well, Becky, it's a fascinating book. I love all the stories inside. It's a very good read. And it's not too too long. It's what is this 100 and 200 160 164 pages before the bibliography, so it's a great read, guys. And if you're interested in history, and you're interested in the West, and you're interested in whiskey, then go out and get the book today. And we will put a link to the Amazon on our website. So thank you so much, Becky. And we hope to hear more. Are you going to do a second book on this, or is there other things coming down the pipeline?

Becky Garrison:
There's going to be some other things down the pipeline. I'm looking into wanting to do some more explorations with Jason Parker and Charles Finkel. There's some interesting collaborations between the marriage between beer and whiskey. I just want to follow that. I've also been tracking Oregon's biodynamic wineries. Oh, fantastic. You know, we have 1% of the state's wines have come from Oregon. but 52% of the biodynamic wineries. So there's a lot of really interesting regenerative farming practices here. And you really start to talk to the farmers and a push away from GMO into really good stuff. And I just think that's, there's a lot that I think we can learn from looking at how they farm out here. It's really an attention to the land, growing what works on the land, not trying to over manipulate it, force it to grow something it can't grow. And it's just really exciting time to be, I think, in the Pacific Northwest and Hopefully the TGB will get off their butts soon so we can have this lovely category. Yeah.

Kerry Moynahan:
We'll see. Well, thank you again for being on the show. Everybody go ahead and get this book. And Becky, we will catch up with you in the future to see more about what you're covering.

Becky Garrison:
Thank you so much.

Kerry Moynahan:
Distilled in Washington comes out Monday, March 18th. Get 20% off your copy from the publisher by using discount code BARRELROOM at the checkout. The direct link to the book can be found in today's show notes. Coming up on Barrel Room Chronicles, we start a three-part on-location tour of Washington State with returning guest Jesse Parker from Doc's Winsense on the next Barrel Room Chronicles. That does it for today's show. To read notes on this episode or learn more about our guests, please visit barrelroomchronicles.com. Want to interact with the show or have questions for our guests? Then ask them on our socials or send us an email. Or better yet, leave us a voicemail on our website. If you like what you heard, please rate and subscribe to the podcast. If you really liked it and you want to show your support, buy us a whiskey through our Ko-fi site at ko-fi.com slash BRC, or become an exclusive member of the Barrel Room Parlor. If you work in the whiskey or spirits industry or just have a deep passion for whiskey and want to share your spirits journey, register to be a guest through our website. Last but not least, please enjoy your spirits responsibly. Thanks for joining me. Until next time, so long.

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